Transcribed from the recording and lightly corrected. It may contain errors; the recording is the record.
00:00So we just kind of got tired of being in that rut. The renewal that we got wasn't really what we deserved. We don't have data. We don't know where our costs are being spent. I mean, imagine a 401k where, you know, an advisor brings it to you. I can't tell you what investments are in here, how much they cost, how much they've returned. Are you ready to sign up? We didn't deserve an increase at all. We ended up with a 12, almost a 13% decrease last year. There are better ways to do this. And I just think we can bring that fiduciary standard of care over to healthcare.
00:58Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Business of Benefits. Today, we have a little bit different of an episode. This is actually a rerun of a recording myself and Brenda Kruse, who is the CFO of Axiom Healthcare Services, did on a podcast called Be More Than a Fiduciary, hosted by Eric Dyson. Eric's podcast is centered around being a fiduciary when it comes to the retirement side, which is essentially, you know, where these rules are coming from when we're talking about health and welfare plans as well, right? ERISA was originally created for the retirement side. It also covers the health and welfare side that's starting to get applied over. So he kind of put us through an interview talking about Axiom's process, how they came to decide how to make improvements, how to kind of go about that, what process they followed,
01:52where Ethos Benefits came in and what kind of things we did to get them on a multi-year plan towards improving their health and welfare plan. Without further ado, here's the episode. Hope you enjoyed. Feel free to check out Eric's podcast, Be More Than a Fiduciary. Donovan, thanks for being here. Eric, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And Brenda, as I said, I'm very excited and I want to thank you for being here as a guest this week. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited as well. So, Donovan, one real quick sidebar for the audience. One of the faux pas of a podcast host is not to do too much in the introduction, but congratulations on being a new father. And give us 15, 20 seconds on what's the biggest thing that's changed for your business, your life, and so that the listener understands your wife, Chelsea, is also part of your practice with you as well.
02:44So what's been the biggest change? Just one quick question there. I mean, there is nothing that hasn't changed. so yeah to your point my my wife chelsea works in the business with me she's um kind of the co-founder as we went from ria to health care plans and um you know we've both been full-time in this for our you know our entire relationship and this is my first born i'm 40 she's much younger um so yeah it's you know you get pretty uh adjusted and set your ways and it's it's a big change all the way around but he's doing great we're doing great and uh we're getting used to it Okay, so back to, and thank you for all that. I mean, again, congratulations, but we'll put it in the show notes. I do want to point the listener towards your website, Ethos Benefits, Forrestland About.
03:32And the reason I call that out, there are a lot of good information that I have in the very brief intro about the fiduciary issues of the healthcare plan. So, Brenda, I'm going to move over to you. I've given a quick introduction, but I want you to tell the listeners a little bit about you, a little bit about Axiom Healthcare and how you... started getting engaged and met Donovan, if you could, please. Sure. So Axiom Healthcare Services is a management company for senior living facilities. And so we have about 1,000 employees all in. And over the years, our benefit committee has changed a bit. It used to pretty much be the HR department would make the decision and maybe get a little bit of input from accounting or finance on the premiums. But, you know, we've really changed that and put in more of a fiduciary team to run that benefit committee because it is important to make sure that we are not only keeping our employees' best interests at heart, but the company's best interests at heart, too, and really making sure that we're making the right decisions.
04:39And, Rhonda, tell the audience how you first got connected with Donovan, please. Sure. Shanda, who is our CHRO at Axiom, she met Donovan and Chelsea at a conference and was really impressed by some of their things that they were talking about. We really weren't in the market for a new broker or new consultant at that point. However, they made a really good impression on her. And so we did start working with them. And, you know, it's been a great, great fit for us. So and Donovan, let me turn it over to you. When you first have engaged with Brenda and the whole team, and obviously, if you want to reference anybody else at Axiom, let us know. But what do you feel were the biggest pieces where you gave them some education, you gave them some help and understanding, not just the fiduciary piece, but as Brenda mentioned, I would say there's a little bit of conundrum between cost control and population health, right?
05:37I mean, they're both two big priorities, but they can sometimes compete with others. So let me simplify that very compound question. What do you feel that you helped them learn the most initially? I think it just goes back to how we approach health care. So the difference with Ethos Benefits is I used to be on your side of the business, probably where most of your listeners are. I was a Series 65 RIA. I was working with plan sponsors on DB and DC plans and accidentally backed into healthcare plans. And the two just could not operate more differently. When you talk about disclosures, lack of data, lack of strategy, everything is just completely opaque, misunderstood, no solutions to actual problems. It's usually just sidestepping and brokering, right? Like selling a risk transfer. So I think we put them through our general experience,
06:33which is really looking at their problems first and putting out some solutions to those rather than just saying, well, your costs are going up here. Let's sidestep you to carrier ABC, right? There are some actual data, some actual strategy to put them on a three to five year business plan rather than the reactive kind of three months out from renewal.
06:54OK, and Brenda, same question your way. I'm going to ask it just slightly different. You said your team, your CHRO was impressed, but what kind of led you to the next step was, oh, hey, they sound good, they sound competent, but we really need to roll up our sleeves and take a look what's going on here. What was kind of the data or the information that said, hey, yeah, let's take this to the next step? Sure. So, you know, we had been in the continuous cycle of, you know, the renewal. You know, you wait for your renewal, you get it and it's an increase, usually a fairly large increase. And then you just wait for the broker to go back and negotiate for a better renewal and they come back and miraculously have better numbers for you, but still an increase.
07:39And, you know, so we just kind of got tired of being in that rut. And so Donovan and his team were able to help us see that our, the renewal that we got wasn't really what we deserved. You know, they were able to look at what data they could get. And we were on a fully funded plan with very little data. But they were able to look at that and see that, you know, really, we didn't deserve an increase at all. And so they were able to help us save. we came back with a like a 2.6% decrease and they said nope that's not good enough went back to the carriers and we ended up with a 12 almost a 13% decrease last year and that was going to a level funded plan we were able to pass on some of those savings to our employees as well and so you know
08:26again the fiduciary role of trying to make the plan better for our employees we were able to lower deductibles and decrease their premiums by 27 to 38 percent depending on the plan that they picked. So, you know, the numbers spoke for themselves and, you know, the service that we're getting from Donovan and his team are just tremendous. So we're very excited and can't wait to see how the three to five year plan holds out for us. Okay, so a very important word you use, and I'll let either one of you answer this, but was data, right? And, you know, one of the things that when I'm doing searches for health consultants for plans, you know, who owns the data? Is there a data warehouse? So either one of you can start and I'll let you two battle it out
09:13for that. How much did data play into this or what can the listener learn from the importance of data? Sure. I'll start with that one. It's crucial. I mean, imagine a 401k where, you know, the advisor brings it to you. I can't tell you what investments are in here, how much they cost, how much they've returned, what your administrative expenses are, what the commissions are, are you ready to sign up? That's how healthcare operates. So the first and foremost decision for any potential change needs to be a sample view into the data package that you're going to be getting if you are looking to make a carrier change. And when you're going through a renewal negotiation, it's not just on price. It should also be on contract terms. And the data that they release is a large part of that,
10:00right? So there's nothing more important. You know, we see health insurance carriers summarizing this to like conditions, right? So, I mean, what are you going to do with the fact that, you know, at the end of the year, you spent 270K on heart and 180K on spine, right? That's not telling we can't come up with solutions to that. You know, if we do know what hospitals these procedure for dial what was the cpt code the procedural code how much did we pay now we can start finding some solutions and figuring out where the company falls kind of in that cost of the supply chain of of uh you know goods and services but as you might imagine and hospital prices are largely made up right so it's it's without that data we really can't get anywhere
10:48It's the starting point. Yeah, I think, and Brenda, I'm going to add on to that an additional question for you. But actually on your webpage, Donovan, I was checking out there's a short YouTube video, and I thought it was really very to the point where your wife said, when you think about the most things we buy, we know how much it costs for a car, right? I mean, not a Bentley versus a Turbo Yugo, but we know the price of those things. There's no standard pricing for procedures across hospitals, and it's just something unknown. So, Brenda, here's what I'm going to ask you. I want you to take everything Donovan just talked about, right, which gets pretty complex. And I want you to pretend you're talking to a new benefits manager and needs a little help.
11:28And you want to explain everything Donovan just said. You know, how was that impact to your company? But do it in terms that I would understand. And I jokingly say, if there's an 11th grade honors student trying to understand this, how would you explain this as simply as you can and how they helped you? Okay, goodness. Let me think on that. Well, really, I think it boils down to, you know, if we don't have data, we don't know where our costs are being spent. And so, you know, by getting the data, we're able to see, you know, as Donovan and his team pointed out to us, 60% of our costs were in pharmacy. And yet our previous broker really wasn't even trying to change our pharmacy plan at all. So, you know, we have to have that data to see where are our dollars going and is that how our plan is designed?
12:20If it's not, then we need to make some plan changes to make sure that we can get the plan aligned with our needs. Okay. And let's, as an isolated topic, let's explore that a little bit because I think, at least in my mind, pharmacy benefit managers are pretty complex, right, for the average benefit professional to understand. You need an expert to do that. But you said 60% of the cost. So I don't need you to give me anything that's necessarily personal to your plan. But what did you need to change? Benefit managers? Was there a change in, you know, what you called your formulary drugs? Or, you know, my understanding is that you have a population that has, you know, high use of drug X, whatever it is, right? that the pharmacy benefit manager using may just not be the right one because of the use of that
13:10drug. And there may be another item. And I think we're all the way back to data. So Donovan, I've butchered that question, but you're shaking your head. So again, explain this to a brand new benefit manager, how this works. Yeah. So I think, you know, kind of what Brenda's talking about. So the year we came in, they just kind of started on a new plan. And, you know, I looked at the proposal from the prior broker slash consultant. And at first I'm looking through it. I'm like, oh, this looks pretty good. They're hitting the buzzwords. They're kind of alluding to the fact they're going to have a responsible proposal here. And then as I look at the claims reports and then the proposal, I realized they're hitting on that mark for what Brenda touched on.
13:5360% of their claims were just pharmacy. and there was no pharmacy solutions in their proposal at all. So you're from one of the large three PBMs to the other one of the large three, right? And that doesn't change pricing. It doesn't change any of the inherent conflicts with pharmacy benefit managers. And largely that's going to be spread pricing. The fact that they're going to retain all the rebates on the drugs at the insurance level and not pass that through to the company. And then also just supply chain solutions that we could add and implement into the health care plan to benefit the employees so they could mail order drugs at no cost. But the plan is also paying 57% less. So with 60% of being in Rx, there was just no solutions presented. It was just, again, one of those insurance sidesteps.
14:43broker is going to do what a broker does, which is sell a new roof transfer rather than say, hold on, let me stop. Let me see how I can consult on reducing the cost internally to fix this premium problem, essentially. And so let me ask this question. And let me just remind both of you are free to send this in a different direction where if I'm going somewhere and you'd like to go somewhere else, but let's go back to your thing about the three to five year plan. Does the pharmacy piece, does that go into that? Or was that just a switch that you flipped and here's a problem, we're going to fix it this way. And now all is good to the pharmacy. Or is that part of the long-term plan there? Yeah, the PBM should always be one of the first steps any
15:28employer takes. It is the easiest, least friction, least disruption part of the healthcare plan to make a change. And it's the highest return on investment. So you're not asking employees to do anything different, go to pharmacies different, take different drugs. You're literally just fixing the cost of goods internally in the healthcare plan. Because the way that conversation happens now with employers, nobody knows. I would say 95% of employers are unaware of who their PBM is. It's usually the insurance company. However, it's usually a secondary company that they own. So there is no conversation in a renewal presentation of this is how the cost of drugs are determined this is how the pbm makes money it's just bundled in right like it's part of the equation it's part of the profit of that insurance carrier so that's always always a role and any
16:22healthcare point usually year one step one is fixing the pbm so it just i think for the listener what you're saying if you make a change from one health carrier you know you go from united healthcare to blue cross blue shield now now there's oh it's my doctor network oh my gosh i I got to travel this far. Those and Brenda's shaking her head right there. So Brenda, let me ask you this. Any change in the pharmacy that you made? Is Donovan's analysis true? Very minimal disruption of the employees really was transparent to them. Can you comment on that? Yeah, I think, you know, especially from my perspective, I'm also on our health plan. You know, I saw very little. I didn't see any disruption, honestly. And in fact, you know, I have felt like I've gotten better service.
17:08And I've even gotten phone calls from our insurance saying, you know, if you switch to this mail order, it's going to save you money and be more convenient for you. And that's been very helpful for me because we didn't have that option previously. And, you know, I think it's good for our employees and really very non-disruptive. So did I hear, Donovan, in your statement that you did make a change to who the PBM was? Yeah, I mean, so the way to think about it for any plan sponsor, so you alluded to like networks and providers and whatnot. So think of a healthcare plan is four separate functions. So the first one and the most important one and what you're talking about, you know, networks, doctors, hospitals, that's going to be the network function, right? So that's going to be the United PPO, the Cigna PPO, Blue Cross, maybe whoever.
18:03But there's a lot of other moving parts. So a secondary part would be the third-party administrator. That's just who's answering the phone for the employees, paying the bills to the providers. And then you have the pharmacy benefit manager and then also the stop-loss insurance. So those are the four moving parts. So when we're working with a company, we market and go out to solve those problems independently. So whereas a company in prior years, year after year, they have different brokers going to market, but only for four carriers, right? Same four carriers, Blue Cross United Sagada, right? Same thing year after year. We're opening that into four pieces. So now we can literally make 100 variations on a proposal. but we can still keep the continuity of that brand experience that maybe the employees want. Maybe they want to remain on a PPO. We can use that PPO network, get an administrator in there
19:01that's going to give us 100% of our data down to the penny so we can manage and understand those costs, get a pharmacy benefit manager in there that's going to be passing through rebates, not doing spread pricing is open to international sourcing of drugs. And then for our stop loss for the actual company, instead of looking at just those top four, we can open it up to 30 plus stop loss providers. There's tons of insurance companies that are willing to underwrite that risk. So we're really increasing competition, increasing transparency and opening up a whole world of solutions, whereas the typical conversation is just transferring that risk to one of the four carriers year by year. A little different topic now. Let's talk about, as I started the introduction, the fiduciary process. So a lot of what we've talked about
19:54really involves, I mean, you did some nice things and I'm not probably doing that justice by using that term, but a lot of what we talked about, we could say, hey, a lot of brokers are doing that, But I want to talk about the fiduciary and the transparency process. So, Brenda, I'll start with you, maybe put you on the spot a little bit. That's not my intention. But have you made changes in a fiduciary process and looking at not just cost for the company, but cost to your employees? And, like, do you have a new dog? What changes? And thank goodness you're shaking your head up and down in the right direction. What changes or improvements have you made recently in your fiduciary process for health care? Sure. I think the big change is realizing that we have a fiduciary liability. Previously,
20:41I think it's just, like you said, not well known that fiduciary liability doesn't just extend to your 401k plan. So again, we put in a committee in place to really make the decisions and make sure that we are being good fiduciaries for our employees. One of the things that we've done is make sure that we get compensation disclosures so that we know what our broker or consultants are making on our plans. You know, in the past, you know, brokers, we didn't really pay good attention to how much they were making off of our premiums. And so our premiums go up, the broker a lot of times benefits from that. And so we wouldn't want to incentivize our employees for bad performance. So why would we want to incentivize our brokers for bad performance? So I think it's important to know what your brokers are being incentivized from all your different plans to make sure that their best interests are for us and not for their pocket.
21:46Yeah. And Brenda, thanks for that great answer. And some of the things that you said, I think we, meaning anybody in the ERISA business, should consider them table stakes. But I've just come to find out that a lot of companies just don't have a committee or they don't understand those requirements for fee disclosures. And I could go on and on about that comparing where the retirement world has been compared to where health care is. And health care is, you know, the Department of Labor has made a lot of good strides with, you know, Transparency and Coverage Act, Consolidated Appropriations Act, and all those, you know, items that you said for fee disclosures. Oh, by the way, to the listener, there are some voluntary benefits that your broker can be making compensation on that do not require a fee disclosure.
22:34My personal take on that is you should still demand it, whether or not it's required. So, Donovan, with Brenda's answer and my soapbox talk, what would you add on that Axiom has done in that fiduciary aspect that maybe Brenda hasn't covered yet? Or is that pretty much all of it? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the starting point in the spirit is aligning interests and getting rid of those perverse incentives that exist. I mean, if you think of health care in comparison to the retirement space, health care is just so far behind. And I mean, even disclosing fees is only since the CAA of 2021. Even still today, companies are doing it very, very poorly to where they're telling you like how they could get it, but not how much. And they're saying that's part of their entire book of business.
23:24So they can't calculate it per client, that kind of stuff. And that's certainly a bad starting point. And then we really help clients like with forming a committee, making a charter, recording the meetings, having a documented decision-making process, and certainly disclosing all compensation on every line. Because you're right, we've seen that a lot where suddenly a line like state unemployment, which is a line you don't, you know, a service product, you don't need to service or negotiate or do any work, can suddenly get 20 and 25% commissions to a broker because that's a hidden piece, right? So we've seen that kind of stuff in the marketplace too. So for sure, aligning interests, if a company, a plan sponsor is hiring a consultant, they should be the one incentivizing them. And the disclosures we're seeing from the large brokerages are just ridiculous. From owning
24:23equity interests in the insurance companies that they represent and recommend down to getting loans and lines of credit from the insurance carriers they recommend. I mean, those are just conflicts of interest that you can't clear. Like, there's no way you could ever put it like a fiduciary standard on that. But unfortunately, in health care, there is no fiduciary obligation. There is no license for it. There is no standard of care requirement there. So it's something that companies have to be intentional about, ask for, and do a 408B2, right very similar on the compensation disclosure are you a fiduciary for me what are you doing how and when are you getting paid yeah and a couple things i want to jump in that you both said just a reminder to the listener let's start with that 408 b2 disclosure you know
25:14and and for those who are new and don't understand that probably most of the audience but it's how much does your service provider make and what are they providing for service well Now, in the healthcare or the retirement side, part of that and your duty as an employer is to determine that it's a reasonable arrangement. And the Department of Labor says, by definition, if you don't have one, it is not reasonable. Okay, let's start there with number one. But also what Donovan and Brenda, you both mentioned, and you couldn't include this, but I want to elaborate on it, is if your health plan is about to get a 20% increase in premium and it's a fully insured plan. Well, your broker is about to get a 20% increase in revenue, right? And what you both said is, well, they may not be, you know, incented to go negotiate for you because, hey, I'm about to get 20% more commission every year or in that given year.
26:10But are they doing any more work compared to what they did the last year? So that's something that you really want to look at to say, hey, if you're going to get a 20% increase, what else are you doing for me? Or, hey, if our premium is going up by 20%, how do we negotiate a lower emission back to what it was? So I try to keep this to about 30 minutes to what it takes for somebody to be on a treadmill. We're getting close to that. And what I want to ask both of you is I want to give, have you both give the most important thing you want to have to the listener. Brenda, the two people, and then Donovan, the same for you. So, Brenda, the two people I want to give you some advice to is the young Donovan, right?
26:53The young health care advisor, consultant, that what's important to a person like you? What do you think they need to focus on the most? And then the other is the young benefit manager who just got hired. You know, what do you think they want to be on the lookout for? So let's start with a younger health and welfare advisor. What is your counsel to them on how to serve the marketplace well? I think the biggest thing is, you know, when looking for an advisor, I want to look for somebody who has my best interests at heart, but it can be a win-win. You know, we can come up with an arrangement where the consultant is, you know, making a fair wage or fair commission. And we're benefiting from that, not only, you know, by saving money, but also making sure that we have the best plan possible for our employees and for our company.
27:46Okay. And now for the new benefit manager that you just hypothetically hired at Axiom. I think I would want to make sure that they know the importance of, you know, the compensation disclosures and also just that they are a fiduciary. And they're, you know, they have to think about our employees, number one, when they're looking at new plans and making sure that the employees get the best plan possible for the dollars that we have. Yeah, I'm going to add on to that a little bit. Again, something you said, I want to just reword it a little bit. I just got done recording an episode for my Friday, which is a short version of the podcast, but it's about fiduciary training. So young benefit folks, get some training on the health care disclosure requirements, Transparent Coverage Act, Consolidated Appropriations Act, you know, what's new out there.
28:39And I'm going to give a quote that I came up with, or it's actually from my friend and somebody I collaborated with, Don Trone, who says the people who have the most risk and the most liability and the most exposure are the people that have the least amount of time and the least amount of training. And that's the people working at the employers, right? Donovan and I do this every day. We eat it, we drink it, we understand it most, and we do have some risk, but not nearly as much as you, the committee members. So Donovan, I'll kick it over to you with kind of same question. And the younger you who's just getting started in this business, what's your advice to them or the thing you want them to hear? And then the young benefit manager.
29:18Yeah, I think on my side, you know, the sad and shocking thing is the standard of care and insurance is just suitable. And any insurance product that I could sell to Axiom is suitable for them to purchase. And that's a very low bar. And that's a very low professional standard to hold yourself to. So I think everybody in this industry needs to start getting curious on solutions, keeping up with news. I mean, I've been going to three to four conferences for over the past decade on health care. And, you know, I went from being a participant to taking those strategies and using them. And now I teach those strategies. So I'm usually speaking it to and attending to. There are better ways to do this. And I just think we can bring that fiduciary standard of care over to health care and sleep a heck of a lot better at night knowing you're bringing the best solution to plan sponsors.
30:14And you can design your compensation to work for that when they get the results, kind of like Brenda was saying, make it a win-win instead of I win, you lose type scenario. So, Donovan, before you get to the young benefit manager, what you said, I love your word standard of care here, right? Because that has come up in another, a number of lawsuits that I've been involved in. You know, what is the level of fiduciary? What is the level of standard of care? But what you just explained, really, that bare minimum legal standard of care, that's why this podcast is titled Be More Than a Fiduciary. My goodness, service providers, let's give more than the minimum required by law, and let's elevate to where we're being good stewards and taking care of it. And Brenda, you know, that's kind of what you said as well, right?
31:00bringing a good service that we can give the best solution we can to our employees. So Donovan, your advice to the young benefit manager to wrap us up here? I think the biggest thing is, you know, I call it external and internal alignment. So like the internal alignment is the company itself forming a committee of different executives that are going to have different questions. So I think CEO, CFO and HR is like your basic starting point. And if you do that, each person in their role and in their capacity is going to ask questions that are important to what they do. And collectively, if they're doing that together and they're on the same page and they're meeting about it, the company is going to get better outcomes for the plant participants. So creating that internal alignment where you guys are working together instead of sometimes it's it's a siloed decision and maybe somebody, you know, CFO signs off on it up top, but they're not really part of it.
31:56that really doesn't work. And that's why I loved working with Axiom. I sat in a boardroom, we had six or eight people there in their benefits committee, and we all kind of diagnosed the problem together, talked about solutions. And that's the typical client we've worked with. That's the ethos of how they treat their employees and what they want to do for them. You know, this is called the health and welfare plan at the end of the day. And I think it's important to take that seriousness into the decision-making process. And I love the, what we'll do the Ted Lasso quote of be curious, not judgmental, right? I think that's huge in our business. And yeah, audio only, I wish the listeners could see that they both smiled and nodded their heads. So we covered a lot today and we could probably, I wish I could go on for
32:43a lot longer, but be respectful of your time and the listeners time and talk about, you know, hey, who owns data, what you can do with data when you've got the right data, negotiating your rate with the carrier based on data, looking at the pharmacy plan, not looking at just this renewal, but looking at three to five years down the road. How do you balance cost versus, you know, what's right for the employees? You know, what does good service look like from a good healthcare broker? And then the part that's, you know, near and dear to my heart that you both talked about, the fiduciary aspects. And oh, by the way, listeners, you know, you can mitigate your fiduciary risk on the healthcare side by just paying for everything, right? Make healthcare fully funded by the employer, no co-pay, and nobody's going to do that. I get that that's
33:30not going to happen. But my point is, as soon as your employees have to pay a single dollar for any of the healthcare coverage, you now trigger your fiduciary duty. So get your disclosures. number one, make sure you have them and, you know, get a good consultant like Donovan and his team to help you understand them, make sure they're in the right order. So Donovan, Brenda, I said, you know, I'd give you the last word I tried before. Did I miss anything? And is there anything else you think you need to share? Or does that wrap it up pretty well? Yeah, I think that really wraps it up well. I think you took exactly what I meant to say and said it in a different way. So I appreciate you including me on this and thank you so much.
34:10Brenda, I cannot overstate how much I really appreciate you spending some time with me and what you're going to give to the listening audience. And like you said, this is exactly who I'd like to have as a guest, someone who's sitting in your chair as CFO or CHRO. And Donovan, anything else before we close? Yeah, I think the only thing I'd like to share is We put out actually two healthcare documentaries that are available to stream off of our website, ethosbenefits.com. Really, really great short intro into the healthcare problem. It's not going to be me. You'll see me for 20 seconds. The rest is going to be attorneys and physicians and HRs and people on all sides of this chain. So one is called It's Not Personal, It's Just Healthcare. And that covers the healthcare problem in kind of totality.
34:59and our newest release is called side effects may include and that is specific to the pbm industry in those industry uh those kind of problems and solutions for them as well but if you're looking for like a really quick 60 minute kind of uh primer into the problem i'd say give that a watch and let me know anything okay donald thanks and for the listener assuming we have room in the show notes so you don't have to write that down but whatever platform you're listening to go to the notes and we'll include the links and you can just click on that. Donovan, thanks for being here today. Thank you. Brenda, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
