Transcribed from the recording and lightly corrected. It may contain errors; the recording is the record.
00:00Trace Voshell: [health detail removed] So unfortunately, my wife and I got to sit down and look at those bills ourselves too, and say, how does anyone pay for this? This is crazy. Most of the time, let's just call it what it is. It's either lazy or they might be collecting on the backside and you don't know about it. Well, you dig a little bit further. The PBM actually had equity in their own mail order pharmacy. So they're making it coming and going, right? They're making money on the adjudication, they're making money on the actual fill of the prescription. The PBM language right here that I was reading in the fine print: these rates may differ from the amounts paid to the retail pharmacies and we, the PBM, may retain the difference. What does that mean?
00:35Trace Voshell: Well, that basically means that they're going to set the price and determine what they pay the pharmacy and keep the spread. Healthcare doesn't have to be that complicated.
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01:13Donovan Ryckis: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Business of Benefits. On today's episode, we have on Trace Voshell, who is the CRO of GoGoMeds. GoGoMeds is a mail order generic pharmacy that you can implement into your health and welfare plans to benefit not only your employees, but your claims costs. So we go through a little bit of the discussion of how to use it, when to use it, and some case studies of the cost savings we've seen when we've used it with our clients. So I hope you enjoy it. Here's Trace from GoGoMeds. All right, Trace, thanks for joining me today. To get started, you know, we've actually met a couple times in a couple different states, different healthcare events, but why don't you give our listeners a 90 second intro to you.
01:57Trace Voshell: Yeah. So thanks for having me. I appreciate you bringing me on here. So I'm Trace Voshell. I'm the chief revenue officer here at GoGoMeds. We are a mail order generic pharmacy. So where most people focus on the high cost specialty drugs or brands, we actually kind of come in on the bottom of the list there and say, hey, we can help you out with your generic medication. We've been helping employers in this specific arena for the last two years, kind of really when PBM inflation and things came to light, we saw what we were purchasing drugs for and said, hey, we can actually be part of a solution here.
02:30Trace Voshell: So I work directly with brokers, HR executives and kind of essential people like that when they look at claim spend and their employees' overall health and the offering to them and see what I can do to help.
02:44Donovan Ryckis: Tell me about that. Tell me about your entry into healthcare and these specific problems. Like how did you become aware? How did you get started?
02:53Trace Voshell: Yeah, so ironically I kind of started on the other side of the coin. I started playing for the bad guys first. So I played college and professional baseball and when I got done, my wife and I were both looking for, you know, where we're going to land. She's from Cleveland, Ohio, from Cincinnati. And we said hey, whoever gets the first job, you know, that's where we're going. I end up getting hired with [company removed] in the specialty pharmacy. So I worked 11 years for a large payer and specialty pharmacy here out of Kentucky. Started in the call center, worked into the sales team and I was fortunate enough to help build that team. I was the third one added, to when I left a team of 85 in the oncology division.
03:31Trace Voshell: So my job was actually working directly with the physicians and their staff and the patients to not really direct which medication was being written but, when a specialty product was written, like hey, here's the cost, here's patient assistance, here's how it works with your plan, here's how you actually acquire it, get it, stay on therapy, track adherence, kind of all the way down the pipeline. Right. So what I did get to notice in all that is just the sheer gross cost of these products. And then I was telling you a little bit about my story. [health detail removed] So unfortunately my wife and I got to sit down and look at those bills ourselves too and say how does anyone pay for this? This is crazy. So fast forward a little bit.
04:09Trace Voshell: I jumped over here to the cash pay and the cost plus model generic side. And now I get to look at employers' spend and their claims files and what they're being charged today by their PBM and what we actually acquire a drug for. So again, kind of going backwards, you see in the news all the time about PBMs getting popped and really just getting called out on the inflation of the actual product. And that's what we're here to solve. So now I actually look at that and say hey, here's what you guys are spending. Here's what your current cost per pill is with your PBM. Here's what we acquire it for as a pharmacy under a cash pay model, or cost plus, better said. And here's how we can kind of change that game and save you money.
04:48Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, I love the solution. Something that plan sponsors can implement very quickly and have real time savings. And I'll be honest, like we use GoGoMeds for our groups and it's something I was kind of unaware of for a while and after we ran our kind of first couple proof of concept pricing studies, I was blown away by what you guys can do. So talk about that, talk about, you know, like if this is something that a plan sponsor is interested in, what's kind of the first steps for them to figure out? Like what is my PBM spend? What opportunities do I have?
05:25Trace Voshell: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I got lucky beginning of this past year getting on stage for Shark Tank and Chelsea sitting on the panel there. So yeah, that was a cool situation to book our meeting, get started working together. So for plan sponsors, the nice thing about us is that we are a solution that kind of covers not all of your lives because not everyone's on a medication, but most folks are. So when you look at most solutions, again, they're focused in pharmacy on the specialty drug or the brand drugs which cover, you know, let's call it 5, 10% of your employee population. But generics are going to cover 80 to 90% of your employees who are on a medication. That's where we come in. So we actually have a solution where you're satisfying more of your employees.
06:06Trace Voshell: It's a quick add in because at the end of the day we're just a pharmacy. So we can work with your mid market PBMs and say, hey, here's all of our credentials, you can add us in, we can adjudicate the claim and make it simple. There's no real difference in the experience for the patient at the end of the day, which is nice because disruption is hard. But as far as a plan sponsor, what's nice is, you know, you work with brokers like Donovan and his team or anyone external, you can just say, hey, I'd really like to request what my spend, my claims data is through my PBM now and, you know, comb through it and see what I'm paying here. So when that happens, they just send that file to me. And it's very simple.
06:40Trace Voshell: We say line by line, pill dispensed by pill dispensed, here's what you were charged. It's on the file. We're not hiding anything. And here's what we would have charged you. And here's your delta. If you like it and you're saving money, here's how you plug in and get it rolled out with your patients. And we go to them and say, hey, here's how simple enrollment can be. We send it straight to your door. And like I said, it sounds like a short pitch, but that's really the pitch in general. It's a simple solution because healthcare doesn't have to be that complicated.
07:07Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, I agree completely. This is one of those things, like easy problem, easy solution to fix. Right. Like it's not overly complicated. You know, plan sponsors, inevitably, they still kind of get pushback when they're bringing something that's not presented by a BUCA. Right. Or a broker. Like, if a solution comes in outside of the broker that's currently representing them, they never look at that favorably because they should be the one bringing solutions. So any type of common pushback or feedback you hear, and ways to address that when, you know, the employer comes, hears this and thinks like, hey, this is a good solution, but maybe they get pushback from their current representation?
07:51Trace Voshell: Yeah. I mean, most of the time, let's just call it what it is, it's either lazy or they might be collecting on the backside. You don't know about it. Unfortunately, doing what I do, I've worked with plenty of your transparent PBMs or fiduciary brokers until it's time to be. And then you kind of figure out what's really happening. So, for example, I've been brought to PBMs on a large group, [client removed], that were going to save this organization like $78,000. Like who wouldn't want to put that back in their pocket. Right. Got brought to the PBM and they said, hey, we can't add you. I said, you can't or you won't? There's a big difference. And they stopped replying. Well, you dig a little bit further. The PBM actually had equity in their own mail order pharmacy.
08:34Trace Voshell: So they're making it coming and going. Right. They're making money on the adjudication, they're making money on the actual fill of the prescription. It's not uncommon, unfortunately. So you're going to get pushback there, if you dig a little deeper and understand if your PBM is actually tied into a network of pharmacies, that they're making some money on the tail side. I mean, like I said, broker kickbacks are a real thing too. Like there's plenty of PBMs out there that will pay brokers like a per script fee. So I mean, there's a lot of those things you just dig into and ask real questions and you kind of come to some conclusions there.
09:08Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, I see that in so many ways. I have huge examples of that kind of stuff where a broker's getting a per member per month for every dependent spouse on the plan to go with a PBM owned by the carrier, 50% of the annual drug spend was getting filled by two pharmacies, both of them owned by the PBM, owned by the carrier, getting paid, you know, to the broker. Like, it's just wild. The kind of stuff we see in pharmacy in general. You know, one of the, I think, good advocates for this market and kind of very similar to your solution is Mark Cuban, right? I say he's got a megaphone, right? And he's bringing attention to this problem of PBMs in general.
10:00Donovan Ryckis: But I was kind of discussing with you like a comparison of like his solution versus what you guys do. And I see a lot more advantages in a solution like GoGoMeds over [company removed]. Can you kind of talk about the differences of how those two programs operate?
10:14Trace Voshell: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. His megaphone's super helpful in the space of kind of calling out what cost plus means because, you know, same way your HR executives sit down with their broker and they're used to the typical conversation of PBM setup of AWP or, you know, the old pricing that was set up to actually be a magic trick that you can't follow so you get overpriced. So cost plus through him has been great in the space because it's drawn awareness to what drug prices should be. At the end of the day, what I tell you and what I tell everyone is [name removed]'s a businessman too. Like, he's in it to make some money. And it's like going to Dick's Sporting Goods, right? Like, I could buy Nike and pay a little bit more.
10:52Trace Voshell: I could buy the Dick's brand that's made out of the same thing, but it doesn't say Nike on it, for a little bit less. That's really where we fall in. So you're going to pay a little bit less for us because we don't have a big name. The other really key factor here is that with [company removed] you get the [company removed] card. So it's not typically mail order. Most of the time you're working with a network pharmacy, you're bringing the card in to where it's almost like GoodRx. You have to remember to do it. You're still actually paying a copay, so there's still a member responsibility on there. They're still actually paying a copay and there's a little bit less savings back to the employer. So there's some definite gaps there with us because of the price we can offer it at.
11:27Trace Voshell: Most of our employers are able to cover the full cost of the drug and say, hey, we're going to make this a total member benefit where we're paying your way on your generic pharmacy. You guys are going to pay zero unless you have a high deductible plan, which letter of the law says first dollar. So we say, okay, that's fine, we'll charge you a dollar. We'll literally say, hey, then your drug's a dollar. So we actually wipe away the entire copay. So that's the difference between us and [company removed]. And then also on the backside the employer's saving a little bit more too.
11:55Donovan Ryckis: Yeah. So I think that deserves to be addressed again. So fundamentally, like, when we're consulting on healthcare plans, like, any solution that's going to work for the plan is going to first work for the employees and that's why they're going to use it. So with GoGoMeds, mail order, so they set it up once and then it's on repeat. Right. Zero copay and then savings for the plan, like, doesn't get any easier.
12:22Trace Voshell: No, that's why I said it's kind of funny to talk through these scenarios because most of the time it feels like someone's like, well, what else? What am I missing? I'm like, there's not. There's really nothing else.
12:31Donovan Ryckis: And I can vouch for that. We place it with several plan sponsors and, you know, every time we do it, I just do a pricing study and I send it to you and I'm always blown away. Like, I think the first one I sent you was.
12:44Trace Voshell: It was.
12:44Donovan Ryckis: It was over six figures. And I was like, I was not.
12:47Trace Voshell: Expecting that. Yeah, I think the most recent one you sent me was around 130, $140,000 back to a plan.
12:54Donovan Ryckis: Yeah. And I wasn't expecting that. Most of the PBM solutions we focus on as consultants or, you know, in educational sessions or wherever it might be, you know, it's certainly focused on like the bigger pain points, which is kind of what you talked about, the internal conflicts of interest. Right. Broker to PBM to the insurance carrier that owns them to their own pharmacies and then also like international drugs. But like I did not know there was so much savings to be had in generics.
13:26Trace Voshell: Yeah, it's common, man. Most people look kind of right past the low hanging fruit and they're like, well, it's a generic. How much less can a five dollar drug be?
13:34Donovan Ryckis: So, so when someone's on a traditional kind of healthcare plan with that Blue Cross, United, Cigna, Aetna, imagine, you know, with their internal conflicts and their internal pharmacies. Like, you know, I kind of just alluded to this. I did a pricing study and over 50% of the spend was internally to their own pharmacies. But I imagine that's kind of also when they don't want to see a common sense option like this implemented.
14:00Trace Voshell: Yeah, typically what we'll do is we'll actually kind of sidestep the BUCAs and just say, hey, you guys do what you got to do, but watch it go around you to where you don't see a claim anymore. So we'll set up direct to employer arrangements where we can use the HR department or the TPA and say, hey, we can set up an eligibility file and still identify people who are on this plan to make sure that the prescriptions that we receive are appropriate and you're only billed for people who should be billed. And then it just gets sent directly to us from the physician and we use those identifiers and we don't adjudicate it back because we're not actually plugged in with the PBM.
14:34Trace Voshell: So what happens then is the employer stops seeing those, you know, the claim bills because they're not going through anymore. And then we just bill them directly so they're saving kind of with us on the actual cost of the medication and all those bills that were coming through for the PBM. So if someone is in an arrangement with, you know, a large PBM, there's still ways around it. That's a common misconception. It's like, hey, I'm handcuffed here. I can't really do anything. You can. It's just a matter of if you're willing to do something that's a little bit different than, you know, the traditional model.
15:04Donovan Ryckis: That's interesting. And it's still, you know, again, it's still benefiting the employees because they're now picking this up at zero copay and set this up once. So they're, I'm sure, happy to do it.
15:16Trace Voshell: Yeah, yeah. Nothing changes in the patient experience whether it goes through a PBM or whether it goes, you know, direct to an employer. That's the nice thing, is there's no complications, no confusion. Like it's still, you know, Donovan goes to the doctor today and gets prescribed in that form. And hey, who's your pharmacy? It's GoGoMeds. Still comes to us, still processes, still goes right to your door. Right. And that's if it's with a PBM or direct to employer. The only difference for us is really like where the bill goes. Like, we're either going to get paid from the PBM in an arrangement, or we're going to send the bill to the employer on an agreed upon schedule and then we'll receive payment that way.
15:52Trace Voshell: So we try to keep everything as cut and dry and simple as possible and then obviously provide reporting back to make sure they know that everything that's being billed is appropriate too.
16:01Donovan Ryckis: And then what do you typically see as a percentage of savings running GoGoMeds?
16:07Trace Voshell: Yeah, typically for us, it's in the range of 30 to 60%. Your BUCA plans? I've seen over 60%, which kind of shows you the gross inflation from those big guys. And then I've got some really good mid markets that push me closer to that 30%. But there's still something that we can do there in the generic space. So very rarely do I drop under that. Here and there I'll get into the high 20s, but most of the time it's that. So I like to change that percentage into a dollar figure and also let people know that there's really no such thing as too small of a group or too large.
16:38Trace Voshell: So for HR out there, if you have a small group, I have [client removed], less than 70 employees, and they're on track this year to save about $45,000. So that's still a good chunk of money back into a small employer's pocket. And then a couple of the groups that you guys send me in the thousands. Right. You get over into that six figure range where you're seeing actual real savings for, you know, penny drugs now.
17:02Donovan Ryckis: Well and I think the other thing is like when we're starting with a new plan sponsor, I mean one of the first things we're looking to do is, you know, the health care problem, the premium situation didn't get that way overnight. So it also can't be corrected overnight and in the following renewal. So we are looking for, you know, when we're benchmarking their costs, we're seeing like okay, their costs, their premiums are very high, both from the employee perspective but also for the employer. We're looking for those quick wins. So if we can reduce coinsurance or copays for these drugs very quickly, I mean that's a huge win. Builds trust from an employee perspective and then we're going to better be able to kind of communicate plan changes year two, year three and beyond.
17:51Trace Voshell: Yeah, for sure. And with us, like our solution, what's nice is like you said, you make something $0. It's a competitive market out there for jobs. Right. Like the employer can really go out there and say hey, if we're recruiting you or trying to retain you, here's what we have in place. Like we actually pay for your pharmacy for you and your family if you're on the plan. So you can recruit new talent, retain talent and use it as an employee satisfaction tool. Kind of goes a long way with, again, trust in your employer and the plan that they've selected.
18:19Donovan Ryckis: Yeah. So is there like a count of drugs, like a, you know, certain number of drugs you have access to, or how does that stuff change daily?
18:29Trace Voshell: Yeah. So on the generic market it's over 98% of all the drugs that are readily available. So there's very few and far between that we don't have access to. So you virtually have access to any generic that's on the market.
18:44Donovan Ryckis: What else should plan sponsors know about this solution or just getting it in place? Timing, you know, to me it's such an easy, simple case. Works for the employees. It's mail order. They don't have to do it if they don't want to, you know, but it's there for them and it makes sense. But anything else?
19:05Trace Voshell: You know, I think there's a couple things. So one, timing, most people ask that question too, and I like to reiterate like we're just a pharmacy, we're not another PBM. So there doesn't have to be a certain point in a cycle, like, hey, we have to wait till the beginning of the plan or anything. Not at all. So, like, Donovan, if you brought me one, it's like, hey, we need a quick win for the fourth quarter for these folks. Like, what can you do? Well, cool. We'll get in place for the fourth quarter and then I'll say, here's what they'll save in three months. And then if I project it out over 12 months, here's what they'll save there. So we can plug in at any time. So fourth quarter's coming right around.
19:37Trace Voshell: I know people want to save a little bit of money. We can jump right in the mix and make this super simple for you. The other thing I would say is, you know, make sure that you guys have a broker out there who's actually going to work for you. Analyze the PBM language. I've actually pulled one today just because I thought it was interesting, that I was working on, and the PBM language right here that I was reading in the fine print: under the traditional AWP pricing model, the customer shall pay the effective retail pharmacy rate as set forth above. These rates may differ from the amounts paid to the retail pharmacies, and we, the PBM, may retain the difference. What does that mean?
20:11Trace Voshell: Well, that basically means that they're going to set the price and determine what they pay the pharmacy and keep the spread. So make sure you guys are reading contract language, especially with AWP, because most of the time you're not getting the best price and someone's making money on the side there.
20:26Donovan Ryckis: I mean, that kind of defeats the whole. AWP is average wholesale price. Right. So everything after they use the term AWP seems to negate the idea of having an average wholesale price when they can change it and they're going to take what's in the middle.
20:43Trace Voshell: Yeah, there's a bunch of shady, fun stuff that you get to read, and I'm sure you guys do it every day, too, but people will send it and say, hey, what do you find here? And I'm like, well, there's a big red flag for me right away. Right? And so cost plus, and we'll simplify this for everyone because we didn't really go through it. But what is the cost plus model? It's the cost of the actual product alone. So if I buy a drug for two pennies, it's the cost of the drug plus our dispensing fee and out the door, right? AWP is more of a formulaic approach, just kind of meant to confuse people and most people can't keep track of it.
21:13Trace Voshell: So cost plus is really just throwing your cards on the table and saying, here's the actual, you know, cost of pharmacy now.
21:20Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, absolutely. And that's important. So like the price of the drug should not be a factor of kind of the spread that the PBM or the pharmacy is making, right?
21:30Trace Voshell: Yeah, I think I put one on my LinkedIn a couple weeks ago. I'll butcher the name of the drug and there's just so many, I can't remember. But it was a pretty common HIV drug. And this PBM, once I went through the analysis, I sent it back to the employer and I said, here's a really good example. So when I broke it down, the PBM was ending up charging these people $14 per pill. Not per fill, per pill. Right. And let's say they're getting 28 pills in a month. When I looked at it, we're charging 31 cents a pill. And you can't tell me that most pharmacies, I mean, we're a small pharmacy based out of Kentucky with a second location in Arizona. You can't tell me that the CVS is...
22:07Trace Voshell: And, you know, everyone else of the world's buying the product for more than I am. Right. So that just kind of went to show what people were actually kind of hiding behind when they inflate the prices, $14 versus 31 cents. It's just, there's a lot that happens out there.
22:21Donovan Ryckis: I've never even thought of or heard the concept of breaking down, you know, the pharmacy spread by pill.
22:30Trace Voshell: Yeah, yeah. When it's that egregious, I was like, this has to be kind of brought out to people to see. So.
22:36Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, yeah. Wow, that's crazy. I love the idea that you can implement this kind of mid year and I think that's a good point because so often plan sponsors are kind of put into an artificial rush because the renewal was released late, it's still in negotiations, they didn't market it. And like, then it's just like, hurry up, we got to go ahead and implement it. So the idea that this could be done at any time, I think is really crucial. You know, this is more of a supply chain thing than it is an annual renewal or, you know, that kind of decision making process, so people can separate them, you know, give you a call anytime and get that set up?
23:16Trace Voshell: Yeah, for sure. I think the last thing that I always like to call out too is that there's a lot of solutions. Employers have solution fatigue. You have solution fatigue. So like with us, the nice thing is that most of the time something gets implemented and you're like, what is the enrollment actually? Like, do you guys go to work? So we actually go to work. We don't charge per member per month fees or anything like that. We operate as a true pharmacy. Like we don't make a dime unless we get a prescription in and send it out the door. But because of that, we actually go to work with the HR team and the employees themselves and say, hey, teach us about your employees. Where do we need to meet them to enroll them? Right. Is it a custom email series?
23:50Trace Voshell: Do I need to fly in and like enroll people on the spot? Because we've done that. We get super creative to make the solution actually work for them. And I feel like there's a lot of solutions out there that get implemented, do one general push and say, okay, that's what it was. So we work pretty hard to make sure that it actually works for you and your company.
24:09Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, that was going to be my next question, is communication and consistency. Sometimes it takes a while to do this for us. We try to open up and focus a lot of our communications also on spouses because that's often, you know, when things will kind of get done. You know, you're only communicating to half the household sometimes. So opening up that communication process through that as well. Do you guys integrate with PBMs so you're getting kind of real time access to what's available and outreach?
24:44Trace Voshell: Yeah, yeah, we do. So there's the mid market PBMs. So your big ones, they'll never let me in. And honestly it wouldn't make sense if they did, I'd have to raise our prices to scrape any pennies to keep the lights on here. So your mid market PBMs will add us in as long as they're truly transparent. Right. I think I told you earlier, it's like everyone's transparent till it becomes time to be. So we don't have to integrate with the PBM because we are just a pharmacy. So all we have to do is provide them our, you know, our accreditation numbers, all of our licensures, my pharmacist in charge information, all that, we get plugged in. Then my operations team just adjudicates a claim. So it goes towards the actual plan. Right.
25:21Trace Voshell: So we can make that very easy and just kind of plug in, plug and play.
25:27Donovan Ryckis: It's awesome. Going back to your point on contract language, I know most people don't read their PBM contracts. We have like, I don't know, like a shy of 70 page PBM procurement guide and I've loaded that up into an AI, so like I'll literally get a new plan sponsor's PBM contract, I can just upload it and that'll be my like initial pass through and run through and it'll redline it, highlight that language, that vague kind of language that you just talked about with AWP and discretion to change it and all that kind of stuff. But I mean even to plan sponsors, like for sure you could send it to me, I'll do that. But like you could take your own PBM contract. There's no PII, there's no personal information on it, there's no, you know, account numbers.
26:14Donovan Ryckis: You get to upload that in a ChatGPT and just say hey, as the plan sponsor, like show me the vague language, the variable pricing, the unfavorable contract terms and it'll pull that stuff right out for you in 60 seconds or less. Sure. Right. And that kind of goes to start to showcase the problems and solutions for this stuff.
26:38Trace Voshell: Yeah, absolutely. I mean all the resources are available. It's just a matter of, A, you make time for what's important, right? Like A, can you find the time to do it, or B, do you have the right person in place to do it, that goes back. There's plenty of lazy brokers out there that are just happy saying hey, here's what your reenrollment is. And you know, there's not much we can do because of your group size or XYZ excuse they'll give you. But there's more than enough solutions out there to make changes. It's just a matter of if people are willing to actually go outside of what status quo has been for so long.
27:08Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, I love it. That makes sense. It's easy. You know, I think oftentimes when I bring this to people they're like, well how come my broker never brought that to me before? And I always have to kind of say like hey, it's in the name, like they're brokering a transfer of risk. That's where they get paid. This is not that. So it's not a mode of compensation, but it does make sense and it does work.
27:36Trace Voshell: Yeah, absolutely.
27:38Donovan Ryckis: Any parting thoughts?
27:39Trace Voshell: I don't think so, man. Like I said, sometimes we get into these things and people are like, there's got to be more, and there's really not. So what I would just tell anyone who's listening out there, if you're actually curious about it, you know, Donovan's your broker of record, or if you want him to be, shoot him the stuff and he'll send it my way. And we can show you for real. And it's quick, too. I think most of the files you send me I have back in 24 to 48 hours at the max. So we turn things around pretty quickly for people. And the nice thing, too, is on these files, we actually show where we lose. I think a lot of people like to hide where they lose. We don't do that. So we'll show it, because we're not perfect.
28:10Trace Voshell: There are some areas that we lose, but the overall is definitely going to be a win. So I appreciate you having me on to get our name out there. I know we're a smaller shop out of Kentucky and Arizona, but I think we're starting to get our feet underneath us and be able to help people in a real way here.
28:26Donovan Ryckis: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You guys are going to continue to grow. We're going to continue to bring you to our employers. I can vouch for Trace and GoGoMeds. Run a proposal, do a cost analysis. It works. You can give your people no cost meds to their door. Just makes sense. So thanks for coming on, Trace.
28:48Trace Voshell: I appreciate you having me, Don.
